a sticker we saw posted on a pole, near the World Trade Center
?
Dave responded to my first blog with a pretty tough question. I’d love to know what you think. Here’s a summed up version (edited for brevity).
“Loving our enemies… forgiveness is a part of that. …. But what about the ones who’s sole purpose in life is to martyr themselves by killing innocent civilians in accordance to a radical belief in a false god? … who… rule over a population by… terror, whisking people away in the middle of the night to be tortured and raped for amusement?
Would God have us simply “turn the other cheek”, forgive and forget? Or would he want us to do something about it[?]”
SOOO….what do you think?
Len and Dave;
Martyrs believe that they will get into Heaven by their actions, that are suppose-of-ly connected to their beliefs. Isn’t this contrary to our beliefs? In fact, when push comes to shove, isn’t it usually our actions that we ask for and need forgiveness for?
Aren’t we supposed to love the person and not the attitude or sin? I know this is very hard to follow and understand at times. Do you think it is possible to see beyond the deception and love the spirit that God has created within?
To me, it is kind of like that story with the little boy in the corral filled with horse manure. A man walks by him several times during the day, and finds him still doing the same thing…shoveling manure. Finally, in the late afternoon, the man asks him what he is doing. The boy responds, “There HAS to be a pony in here somewhere!”
I think with some people…policitcal and personal, we have to assume tis attitude. There has got to be something worth while in there…even with all of the pre-existing deception.
Crash,
Funny- there’s got to be a pony in here somewhere! Some days I say that looking in the mirror. Where is the pony? One point that has been running through my mind lately is that every human is of sacred worth. and yes… Some have been deceived….
But Dave’s question covers the worst case scenario, and still looms unanswered….. (the challenge is still out there….)…..
Len;
When times seem to be getting bad and especially frustrating, I try to look at my past…at personal ordeals. With some deliberate efforts, I can honestly verify that there has been and is a pony in there SOMEWHERE waiting to be discovered. My main issue currently in trying to know and or decypher the proper steps that God is trying to lead me in.
By the way, I know I am aplying this to personal issues, but, shouldn’t we do our best to apply our personal beliefs to the outer world? Isn’t this how we make an example for those questioning their beliefs?
Stepping hesitantly,
Crash
I’ll try to keep my opinion short as it has many aspects. My apologies if parts of this may seem to “radical” to some. I’m not tuned to everyone’s views.
July 4, 1776 marked a great day for humanity. The Second Continental Congress proclaimed to Britain and the world that Liberty was a right given by God that no man could deny. A long bloody war was fought and at the end, the first nation in the world based on God given, unalienable rights was forged. Throughout history, many wars were fought, many lives lost for the cause of preserving this belief and this way of life which I for one hold very dear. Those people believed that freedom is never free and is paid for in blood. Because I believe liberty is from God, I believe Jesus understood this cost as well. Man could never be ETERNALLY free without his death.
With that in mind, every live has sacred worth. Not to be discarded at will (the basis for the anti-abortion argument). This is why God has given us the commandment ‘Thou shall not murder’ (NOT thou shall not kill). But the wars we fight here in the flesh, I firmly believe are but physical extensions of the spiritual war being fought all around us. It is the fight all Christians are in. The challenge we face is combating evil without falling to hatred. Yes, we should forgive and not fall into hatred for Osama Bin Ladin, Saddam Hussein, etc despite the atrocities they’ve committed and certainly pray for them and God willing witness to them if given the chance, but would we have ‘turned the other cheek’ to Adolf Hitler? No, we didn’t and we shouldn’t! I believe those lessons Jesus taught us were to influence how we interact and treat each other in our daily lives. To be able to show each other in our ’sphere of influence’ the light of God in our lives. Through that example bring others to that same saving grace. We serve a loving and forgiving God, but we cannot forget that as forgiving as our God is, not every soul will spend eternity in heaven. We must also never forget that evil certainly does exist. It exists to destroy that which is good. And as someone once said, evil will prevail when good men do nothing.
Humbly submitted
Dave
Dave raises an interesting delimma for those who seek to apply the ways of the Master to contemporary life. Jesus could have struck down his enemies at any time — he didn’t. Jesus could have forced his enemies to bow down before him — he didn’t (although one day they will). Jesus could have allowed Peter to continue slashing ears off those who came to arrest him — he didn’t.
God declares that we are to love — even our enemies. That’s is one of the most difficult commands given to us — but he did, are we are to follow his example. If the Church had followed this command over the centuries we might not be in the mess we are in today.
We cannot forget the historical and military context that Jesus spoke into- Rome was bearing down on Jerusalem/Israel. The oppression of Israel was probably FAR worst than anything America experienced with England over 200 years ago, yet, Jesus spoke to his disciples, some of whom (Zealots) wanted to wage war- telling them to “turn the other cheek, love your enemy, bless those who curse you, and put down your sword.”
Now- here is the amazing part. After Jesus died and resurrected, there were three Jewish Rebellions (seemingly against Jesus’ own teaching), all resulting in utter devastation for God’s chosen Israel. Including the loss of the land for, well, about 2000 years (Ancient Jewish Scholars viewed this as God’s judgment upon Israel, just like the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions).
Practically, it makes sense Jesus would warn his passionate disciples about their anger and lust for vengeance. It would eventually be the downfall for millenia for Israel. Instead, he showed them a better way, and while Israel as a coherent nation-state was destroyed, the Gospel got out and spread like wildfire!
But if the Rebellion had never happened, would Israel have kept their land? And then, there would have been no need to “displace” any persons last century, preventing a chain of misery and terrorism. If only the rebellious militants in Israel would have submitted. That is, if you take a pacifist view of Christ’s teachings. There are good Christians who believe more strongly in “just war.”